Áýezhan Qodar: Abai bizge muqtaj emes, biz Abaiǵa muqtajbyz.

- Sońǵy jyldary qoǵamda Abai shyǵarmalary týraly belgili bir adamdardyń pikirin ǵana nasihattaý, uly aqyn týraly ózgeshe pikir aitqandardy qazaqtyń jaýy kórý sekildi bir úrdis baiqalady? Buǵan qalai qaraisyz? 

- Men mundaiǵa qarsymyn. Shynynda, bizdiń keibir ziialylarymyz Abaidy bilmei turyp maqtaidy, Abaidan eskertkish, ǵibadathana jasaidy. Rasynda maqsat — Abaidy qolpashtaý emes, meńgerý, ony túsiný, uly oishyldyń álemine, dúnietanymyna ený bolý kerek. Ári Abai álemine ideologiiasyz barý qajet.

Qazaqstan táýelsizdigin alǵan jyldary Abaidyń islamnyń keibir qaǵidalaryna qarsy bolǵany, onyń qazaq halqyn júieli túrde synaǵany keibir kisilerge unamai aqyndy qazirgi zaman kemesinen túsirip tastaiyq degen de áńgimeler boldy. Al, bul múmkin emes edi. Óitkeni, Abai bizdiń dúnietanymymyzǵa ábden sińgen. Men ony aýdarma barysynda keńinen zerttedim. Sonda Abaidyń islam mádenietine tereń boilaǵan adam ekenin túsindim. Ásirese, ál-Farabi qalaǵan islamnyń dini pálsafalyq baǵytyna Abai qatty boilaǵan kisi eken. Munyń bárin onyń qara sózderinen baiqaýǵa bolady.

Biz Abaidy basymyzdy shaiqap, kózimizdi jumyp moiyndaǵanmen, onyń aitqanyn istemeimiz ǵoi. Abaida bedel bar, biraq statýs joq. Men Abaidyń pálsafaǵa, dini reformalarǵa arnalǵan on úsh sózin taptym. 

Biz qazir ǵylymi tanym arqyly Abaida ne bar, ne joq ekenin túgendep boldyq. Abaidyń bereri áli de kóp. Endi bizge Abaidyń ilimin ustanatyn kez keldi. Osy Abai ilimin ustaný jaǵy bizde kemshin túsip jatyr. Ol úshin Abaidy óziniń etikalyq ilimin jasaǵan adam retinde kórsetý kerek dep oilaimyn.

- Siz aýdarma jasaý barysynda Abaidyń bizge beimálim qandai qyryna qanyqtyńyz? 

- Men Abaidyń adamgershiligine, náziktigine jáne Abaidyń eń ǵajap mahabbat lirikasyn jasaǵan adam ekenine qanyqtym. Abai mahabbatty sulýlyq dep túsinbeidi. Ol mahabbatty tereń bir rýhani jaqyndyq dep túsinedi. Mine, osy mahabbatty rýhanilyqqa burǵany qazaqtyń psihologiiasyn, júregin baiytqany dep túsinem. Abaidyń mahabbatqa arnaǵan 14 –aq, óleńi bar eken. Sonda ol «ǵashyqtyq tili – tilsiz til» degen óleńinen, iaǵni mahabbattyń paida bolýynan bastap, ol sezimniń múlde joǵalýyna deiin jazady.

Men Abaidyń mynandai bir óleńin aýdardym. «Týǵyzǵan ata-ana joq, týǵyzarlyq bala joq, Týysqan týǵan, qurbylar qyzyǵymen jáne joq» deidi.

Sonda bul qalai dep oilaisyz? Árbir adamnyń ata-anasy bar ǵoi. Al, Abai ony ata-ana balany fizikalyq túrde týǵyzǵanymen, balany rýhani túrde týǵyzbaǵan ony rýhani turǵyda jetildirmegen, balanyń ishki psihologiiasyn quryp, oǵan baǵyt bermegen dep túsindirgisi kelgen dep oilaimyn. Osylaisha, Abaiǵa boilai berseńiz ony jańa qyrlary ashyla beredi eken. 

- Keibir ádebietshilerdiń pikirinshe, Abai zamany– kóshpendiler dáýiriniń aiaqtalar jáne zamany ótip bara jatqan tusy edi. Osylaisha, Abai kóshpendiler psihologiiasynyń ornyna qazaq halqyna otyryqshylanǵan, eýropalanǵan psihologiiany engizgisi kelgen. Tipti, óz shyǵarmalarynda osyny negizdep, baǵyt jasap bergen. Sizdińshe, keiin kele Abaidyń osy dúniesiniń iske asý mehanizmi oilap tabyldy ma, engizildi me?

- Ol týraly oilanǵan adam boldy ma eken? Ái, qaidam. Abai bizge muqtaj emes, biz Abaiǵa muqtajbyz. Osyndai dúnieler týraly keńinen, tereńinen oilaný kerek. Ol úshin Abaidyń ilimimen júretin qoǵam jasaý kerek. Qazir Abaidyń ilimin ustanyp, mektebin jalǵastyrýshylar joq. Abai shyǵarmalaryndaǵy ideialyq dúnielerdi iske asyra almai, onyń mehanizmderin oilap taba almai otyrǵanymyzdyń bir sebebi de osynda. Árine, Abaidyń ilimin damytqan, mektebin qalyptastyrǵandar boldy. Abai mektebiniń iri ókilderiniń biri Shákárim Qudaiberdiuly. Shákárim Abai aitqan oilardyń bárin óziniń dialektikalyq deńgeiine kóterdi. Shákárim óziniń «Úsh anyq» degen kitabynda Abaidyń imani ilimin ar ilimine ainaldyrady. Shákárimniń oiynsha, arlylyq, uiattylyq ol tek qana Allanyń atymen shektelmeidi. Ol eń aldymen adamnyń júreginde bolýy kerek. Jáne adamnyń istegen isi men oilaǵan oiy bir bolýy kerek. Mine, osy nárselerdi Abai men Shákárimniń damytqan ilimderi dep esepteimin.

- Abaiǵa deiingi kóshpendilerdiń ǵasyrlar boiǵy mádenieti men ádebieti jáne pálsapalyq oi aitý júiesi 19 ǵasyrda Abaidyń shyǵýyna alyp kelgen degen pikirler de bar. Siz osyndai pikirlerge qalai qaraisyz?

- Men de solai oilaimyn. Óitkeni, Abaiǵa boilai kirip, tereńdeseńiz onyń búkil Orta Aziia ilimimen sabaqtas ekenine tańqalasyz. Al, Muhtar Áýezov Abaidyń úsh qunaryn aityp ketken ǵoi. Ol qazaq topyraǵy, orys topyraǵy, úshinshi orystar arqyly Eýropa. 

Al endi oilap qarasańyz, Abaidyń taǵy bir bastaý kózin tabýǵa bolady. Ol myna úndi-iran mádenietinen alynǵan jaýanmárttilik degen ilim. Men muny zerttedim. Bizdiń ortaǵasyrlarda ómir súrgen Muhammed Haidar Dýlati, Babyr siiaqty babalarymyz osy ilimdi ustanǵan. Jaýanmárttilik degen – óz-ózińe úlken jaýapkershilik artý. Sol jaýapkershilik arqyly óz elińdi kóterý. «Elsúigishtik ilim» dese de bolady. Mysaly, qazir biz aityp jatyrmyz ǵoi, Qazaqstan patriotizmin oiatýymyz kerek dep, shynynda, bul Qazaqstandaǵy barlyq ulttarǵa teńdei bólingen Amerika patriotizmi siiaqty. Bul patriotizm qazaqtyń qanyndaǵy dúnie emes. Bul jerde qandai halyq bolsyn ózine úlken jaýapkershilik artpasa, ózi týraly oilanbasa ol halyq eshqashan ózin alǵa shyǵara almaidy. Sol siiaqty qazaq halqy da aldyna úlken maqsattar qoia bilýi kerek. Mine, dál osy turǵyda bizge Abaidyń bereri óte kóp.

- Qazir de Abaidyń qazaq halqyna qaratyp aitqan synynan tsitata keltirip, óz ultyna tiisý bar ekenin bilesiz. Osymen qalai kúresýge bolady dep oilaisyz?

- Abaidyń qazaqty synaǵanynyń bári ol janashyrlyq pen onyń bolashaǵyna alańdaý, jańa zamanda halyq bolyp qalyptasý úshin eski minezderden arylsa eken degen izgi nietpen jazylǵan. Al, qazirgi saiasatkerlerdiń Abaidy qoljaýlyq qylýǵa quqy joq. Ózderi ne istedi? Bizge arlylyqtyń, uiattylyqtyń úlgisin kórsetti me? Ázirge biz olardyń tarapynan ondai izgi dúnieler kóre almai otyrmyz ǵoi. Al endi buqaranyń Abai aityp ketken dep óz ultyna tiisýge daiar turatynyna ideologiia kináli. Biz budan Abai kótergen etikalyq deńgeige kóterilip baryp arylamyz. 

- Qazaqstan Abaidyń shyǵarmalaryn nasihattaýdan góri onyń atyna Qazaqstandy qosyp nasihattaýǵa beiim sekildi. Siz qalai oilaisyz?

- Shynynda bul Abai arqyly bedel jinaý, Abaidy nasihattaý emes. Tipti, abaitanýda Muhtar Áýezovten keiin alǵa jyljýshylyq joq. Menińshe, abaitanýdy birneshe kezeń boiynsha júzege asyratyn kez keldi. Abaidyń isin, onyń etikalyq ilimin Qazaqstanda tiriltý, abaitaný institýtyn qurý, uly oishyldy halyqaralyq deńgeide nasihattaý siiaqty birneshe baǵytta jumys isteý kerek.

Qazir álem Abaidy tek qana Áýezovtiń zertteýleri arqyly ǵana biledi. Jáne de halyqaralyq deńgeide Abaidy zertteýge arnalǵan qoǵam ashý qajet. Jáne bir másele aýdarmanyń aqsap jatqany. Mysaly, men Abaidy, Maǵjandy, Mahambetti aýdardym. Aýdarǵan dúnień qumǵa sińgen sý siiaqty. Oǵan pikir aitatyn, óz deńgeiinde qabyldaityn orta joq. Al endi joǵaryda aitqanymyzdai qoǵam quryp, aýdarmany qolǵa alsaq, bir Abaidyń ózinen Eýropaǵa, orysqa jańa álem ashqandai áser eter edik. Mine, sol kezde ǵana bizdiń mádenietimiz taralady.

- Joǵaryda ózińiz Muhtar Áýezovten keiin abaitaný alǵa jyljyǵan joq dedińiz. Dástúrli abaitanýshylyq Abaiǵa jańasha kózqarastaǵy jastardyń jańasha baǵytta zertteýine kedergi bolyp jatqan joq pa?

- Bul týraly aitsam, men jylap jiberem. Qazir Abaimen kim ainalyspaidy. Eshqandai qatysy joq adamdar da ainalysyp júr. Solar institýt basqarady, bir kitaptar shyǵarǵan bolady. Shynyn aitqanda, Abaiǵa jańasha kózqaras joq. Kezinde men osyǵan qatysty aýdarmamda óz oiymdy aitqanmyn. Qazir Abaidyń qara sózderin «kniga slov», «slova nazidanie» dep aýdaryp júr ǵoi. Men buǵan qarsymyn. Arabtyń «ǵaqliia» degen sózi «oi» degen maǵyna beredi. Sondyqtan ony orys tiline razmyshlenie dep, árbir sózin monolog dep aýdarý kerek. Sonda biz Abaidy týra Eýropa mádenietiniń ortasyna shyǵaramyz. Sol kezde Abai osy mádenietine ǵana táýeldi emes, álemdik mádeniettiń iri tulǵasy bolyp shyǵady.

- Keiingi kezderi Abai álemi jetimdik kórip júrgendei sezinbeisiz be? 

- Ókinishke qarai jetimsirep júrgeni ras. Óitkeni, jylda týǵan kúni qarsańynda bári jappai aitady, jazady. Eskertkishine gúl shoqtaryn qoiady, sonymen bitti, qalady. Meniń oiymsha, bizdiń úkimet abaitanýdan, rýhani ilimderimizdi qaita jańǵyrtýdan aqsha aiamaýy kerek. 

- Áńgimeńizge rahmet!